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Kathy Wise is moving to CNC intarsia?

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  • Kathy Wise is moving to CNC intarsia?

    Caught this video from Legacy Systems - one of the big CNC makers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmbPv-Q1Y10

    I guess, if you see intarsia projects, that look exactly the way Kathy does them, you know how they are made.

    Disappointing, to me. When I use a pattern from one of the artists - Judy, Kathy, Janette, Bruce - I usually just use the pattern to cut the pieces of wood. And I'm known for modifying those sometimes, if I don't feel they truly represent the subject of the project. For shaping I usually go to google->images->subject, where I'll find hundreds of pictures of whatever I'm making. I'll select a dozen of those to determine how to shape the project,

    Does this take longer than letting a computer and router do it? Yepper, but when I'm done you have a unique piece. There is no other like it, unless someone else takes it a makes an exact copy of it. Even if I have made that project before, I've used different woods - changed the pattern somewhat - shaped parts of it differently - finished it differently.

    Luckily there are juried shows where people can go to get original stuff.
    Tony

    My Son-in-law said "Darnit, I cut this board twice, now. And it's still too short."

  • #2
    Thanks for posting. I watched it. Interesting for sure. There are some more videos (at least one) that are there as well. I knew she was starting to do some CNC stuff because she had a free CNC rose pattern available on her site. I hadn’t looked recently to know if she had added more and made any to sell yet. Assumed she was heading that way.

    I can understand from her perspective somewhat, that she is in the business of making and selling plans. They are her livelihood. It is how she pays the bills. She notes in the video that as she went to shows, she saw less and less scroll saws and more CNCs. So from her perspective, the market is clearly swinging to the CNC she believes and, as a result, to keep making money, and possibly more money (CNC artwork costs significantly more than she charges now for an Intarsia plan.) it would make sense to go down this path. She has been doing several things trying to pull in Scroll business, selling patterns at a discount, doing her monthly pattern club so it may be her pattern business has not been booming so she is looking for new avenues. She also doesn’t seem to be disturbed by the “artistic” side that is lost with the use of a CNC machine or how many of her designs could “flood” the market which, in my opinion “cheapens” her artwork. It almost sounded like she herself will be moving to doing her pieces this way rather then the saw possibly.

    i do Intarsia for the love and enjoyment of it. I do not sell my work so it will not really impact me and my work doing Intarsia. However, if I was doing Intarsia and trying to sell it, it would make me rethink buying any of her plans for sure. I wouldn’t want pieces that were so easily created and will be sold probably for significantly less then those crafted by scrollers. Even though I may not sell mine, I may still not want to buy a pattern that is so easily created by someone with a CNC machine.

    In full disclosure, I will note that we have a CNC at our house. We have had it a little over a year now. It is just another “tool” in the shop that I have enjoyed learning to use and create with. I have not used it to create anything that I can do on my Scroll Saw. I have used it to do more engravings type work. I still love working on my saws though. Would I buy one of her plans for the CNC? I learned a long time ago to never say never however, I don’t think I would ever buy and do Intarsia work that way but I might buy a design for other purposes. I also never claim anything I have made with the CNC is “handmade” although You still do a lot of “handwork” to finish a CNC project once you take it off the machine.

    Will be be interesting to watch for sure.

    Melanie from East TN

    Comment


    • #3
      Went to her website to see what she had available out of curiosity. So far, she besides the free rosebud she offers to try - she has 11 other files up for use with a CNC. You can see them here:
      https://store7626357.ecwid.com/#!/CN...0&sort=nameAsc
      She has the common types offered by most modelers - Raised, Dished and Recessed designs. Some are also available for inlay or Intarsia work. She is selling each model for $25 a piece. Which is $15 more then her average price per Intarsia pattern which is usually around $10 I think.
      Melanie from East TN

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      • #4
        Why would she not do patterns for the CNC? It’s just another tool in her business. Can the pattern be cut from different woods on the Cnc or does it have to be cut from one piece? That what makes intarsia, all the different woods and that’s what commands the price. People always ask me Cnc? No, scrollsaw. They look longer and usually buy something.
        I’m lucky that I live in an “artsy” area and people pay a good price for it. That’s why I can’t sell baskets from plywood. They don’t want it and it’s a waste of my time to do it. If you put two of the same items side by side, cnc and scrollsaw intarsia, I bet people would pick scrollsaw every time. Well back to March madness, North Dakota State U and Duke.
        Last edited by will8989; 03-23-2019, 02:31 AM.
        Betty

        "Congress needs to realize it is a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Not of the people, by the people and for Congress." - Dr. Benjamin Carson, Pediatric Neurosurgeon, Johns Hopkins Hospital

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        • #5
          Originally posted by will8989 View Post
          Can the pattern be cut from different woods on the Cnc or does it have to be cut from one piece?
          That really depends on the file type you choose to download. STL for example is a 3D model where you just cut from a solid block of wood. If you ordered the EPS file which is the line drawing you could program the machine to cut each piece but it does take awhile to program everything. For a one of a kind piece the scroll saw might actually be faster but if you spent the time to program the CNC you can cut as many as you like.

          Everybody just thinks you pop a piece of wood on the CNC and the machine does everything for you. Well it doesn't work that way it takes a lot of programming and planning to run a CNC.

          I'm a tool junkie so I have a CNC and a scroll saw and I use whichever one suits the job. EXAMPLE: If I am making wooden geared clocks I will program the machine just so I don't have to go over every tooth profile. If I'm doing fretwork or intarsia I typically go to the scroll saw. I rarely ever do the same project twice so it isn't worth take the time to program the machine.

          Somebody once said he who dies with the most tools wins and I can't let Rolf beat me. LOL

          Tim

          In God we trust, all others must pay cash!

          I don't want no bargains, they always cost me more money.

          Comment


          • #6
            Trying to make a living in this craft is super hard. Luckily, my income comes from my day job, so the pressure to make money don't really figure into my hobby. But I understand, when you have to make a living, and the income is less than the outgo, you have to search for other revenue streams.

            I feel for anyone trying to live off this craft, but hope her the best. At the same time, I feel a little weird when seeing laser cut or CNC goods at the craft store.
            "Ever Striving, Never Arriving"
            website: http://www.coincutting.com

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            • #7
              Her are some observations I noticed:

              The video was posted just about a year ago.

              If you look through the videos you will see that over 4 years ago Legacy had a video with Kathy's angel pattern and noted in the video that Kathy had been working with them the previous year - 2013. So she has been working with CNC for around 6 years it seems.

              At 15:24 in the video she says (regarding a question about CNC vs. scroll saw) "Some guys don't have the patience or the skill for the scroll saw." ...don't have the patience to stay on the line and take their time with cutting then take their time with sanding."

              She is definitely "making the case" for the CNC with that statement. She doesn't note however that the sanding time is close using either machine (but may be less on the CNC depending on the user and what they can do on the CNC). She also doesn't mention the huge learning curve on the CNC and software.

              She also went on to agree with the questioner that the CNC would be better if a person is selling their projects because you could charge less amount of money because you have less time into the project.

              This is really taking a swipe at scroll sawers because they command a higher price for theirs since they are hand made. She is effectively saying: Use a CNC machine to undercut the scroll saw users on price! She also doesn't consider a person who purchaces a CNC machine will have to recoup the price of the machine and will (or should) raise their prices!

              At 16:59 when she was asked about the responses of people regarding if they notice a difference between CNC and the scroll saw.
              She says: "I show that one (the intarsia piece) to people and they have no idea that it was done on a CNC machine. And when I tell them that was all done by a machine, they're just "No way, where did you get that?" I say, "I did that. I made the pattern, I did the original, but I did the pattern. Ended in the CNC and put them side by side and most people would never be able to tell the difference!""

              That is just the opposite from what people (and what Betty says above) have been saying to woodworkers at shows for years!

              So I wouldn't say that she is totally sold out on the CNC, but it sounds like she's close.

              Karl
              Last edited by KarlB; 03-22-2019, 10:39 PM. Reason: fixing sentence structure and grammar mistakes
              Karl in Sunny Southwest Florida

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              • #8
                A lot of the upper shows, and the farmers Mkt I do, require that items be handmade which excludes the cnc. They even came to my house to make sure it was not done on cnc. Personally, I feel cut on cnc cheapens the item which I am finding. That being said, there is one guy in Bruce’s woodworker club who does scrollsaw and uses the cnc for making earrings. That puts him in competition with jewelry makers as he is mass producing. So far no problem, but....

                Business is business and we do what we need to do to survive but I don’t agree with slamming one way of doing things over another. I have no desire to spend money on or learn a cnc. My customers are extremely happy with my work and I will continue the way I’ve been doing it for 25+ years.
                Betty

                "Congress needs to realize it is a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Not of the people, by the people and for Congress." - Dr. Benjamin Carson, Pediatric Neurosurgeon, Johns Hopkins Hospital

                Comment


                • #9
                  I say good for Kathy for taking on this challenge as I am a techno junkie and appreciate what drives her and challenges her. This is just another progression in her sculpting career. Do I feel that the CNC is a threat to me or the majority of hand crafters, no. Those of us that do Intarsia do it because we love the flexibility it allows us to make each piece our own like Tony said. The scroll saw gives me the relaxation that I crave the CAD software challenges my mind, what little is left of it.

                  If I had the space There would be a CNC in my shop, if for no other reason I have to keep up with TIM. As he said it is just another tool with some unique capabilities. Not only does the CNC have serious learning curve but creating a program to run it is a whole huge learning curve. Doing 2D routing , gears, signs etc is relatively easy but to take it the next level such as Intarsia with the flowing curves, that requires expensive software and design skills. Play around with some of the trial software that is available like Autodesk Fusion and Sketchup. if you want a taste.

                  For those of us that sell our wares and get that comment " you made this?" You used a what? There is no paint or stain, Really.
                  We should be proud of our work no matter how we produce it, because either scrolling, carving or CNC they all take a huge amount of skill. By the way That legacy CNC is around $18K
                  Rolf
                  RBI G4 Hawk, Delta SS350, Nova 1624 DVR XP
                  Philosophy "I don't know that I can't, therefore I can"
                  Proud Member of the Long Island Woodworkers Club
                  And the Long Island Scrollsaw Association

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    These artists need to eat and if they go off in a slightly different direction to keep the lights on, then they will do it.
                    If a market exists, why not sell to it?
                    Sheila Landry has her painting side to compliment the saw patterns and I just started following Sue Mey on Instagram and she does paintings and cake decorating as well as making great saw patterns.
                    Jim
                    When looking at the clock at work--the correct time is:
                    Too early to leave, too late to call in.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You have to diversify these days to make it, RJ
                      Life Begins @ 190 MPH

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Karl, if Kathy has been getting into the CNC world since 2013, there is no evidence that I see it has taken over what she sells. She still designs patterns and the scrolling Intarsia artists continue to benefit from that and if she is also adding a pattern line for CNC folks lucky them.

                        Intarsia work does not have a large market, at least not that I see. CNC is a significant investment in time and equipment. And thinking about it not the most efficient use of wood. If you are using exotic woods think about cutting out the parts, the scroll saw removes a few thousandths of an inch, to do that same cut on a CNC takes a larger diameter bit creating more waste, and you cant get the sharp corners that you get with the saw.

                        So I am not sure how much cheaper you could sell the pieces for. The time invested from design to production may not be so much different.
                        If you watch a CNC in action that is creating a rounded surface, they use a rounded cutter removing very small amounts at a relatively low feed rate.
                        Rolf
                        RBI G4 Hawk, Delta SS350, Nova 1624 DVR XP
                        Philosophy "I don't know that I can't, therefore I can"
                        Proud Member of the Long Island Woodworkers Club
                        And the Long Island Scrollsaw Association

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As an example -- How many scrollers would sell these types of ornaments for $3 - $5 each. Yet they are selling Tinksky patterned ornament, on Amazon, 10 for $6 --
                          Looking at the burnt edges one can seed they are laser cut. I am unfamiliar with Tinksky, so I do not know whose pattern was used to make the ornaments.

                          https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...1140_401275930

                          Last edited by tgiro01; 03-25-2019, 08:06 AM.
                          Tony

                          My Son-in-law said "Darnit, I cut this board twice, now. And it's still too short."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My dad told me way back when he was teaching me how to use the Scroll Saw that it was a dying art. With the upcoming technology I believe our saws will become antiques. People already assume that some of the more complex work is done by lasers. I personally do not know anyone under the age of 30 that does fret work or other complex work. (I am sure they are out there its just that I don't see any here where I live).
                            Brian in the Four Corners

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                            • #15
                              Rolf,

                              You are agreeing with me I suppose:

                              She also went on to agree with the questioner that the CNC would be better if a person is selling their projects because you could charge less amount of money because you have less time into the project.

                              This is really taking a swipe at scroll sawers because they command a higher price for theirs since they are hand made. She is effectively saying: Use a CNC machine to undercut the scroll saw users on price! She also doesn't consider a person who purchases a CNC machine will have to recoup the price of the machine and will (or should) raise their prices!
                              _____________

                              I believe a person would have to really believe they could sell a lot of product to justify a purchase of a CNC machine. A pattern maker would have to believe having a CNC would allow them to reduce their overall costs to justify the purchase. If, however, a pattern maker was given a CNC machine or had a reduced price in exchange for promoting them and making their patterns available then the cost might make more sense. (This is NOT saying Kathy has, but I know there are many YouTube videos where woodworkers (and other crafter types) have received tools and products in exchange for videos.)

                              I am familiar with CNC as our cabinet shop purchased one last year for cutting out boxes. It still takes human interaction to edge band and build the box however.

                              My post above was just my observations based upon what I saw in the videos. I personally would not begrudge a person for attempting to do better for themselves in business with whatever tools are available for them.

                              I also agree with what Tim said in another topic (and what Rolf alluded to):

                              There is no right or wrong to this as long as you don't try to mislead people.


                              Karl
                              Karl in Sunny Southwest Florida

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