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  • Removed thread about Copyright protection

    Part of my job is to monitor the message board. Usually, that is an
    enjoyable part of my day; interacting with scrollers literally from
    around the world.

    Unfortunately, over the past few days, a particular thread has consumed
    most of the time I spend on the forum, and it has been anything but
    enjoyable.

    That thread put me in a difficult position. I only recently talked about
    how I want to maintain an attitude of free and open discussion on the
    message board...mimicking the freedoms of speech we enjoy in the US as
    much as possible.

    I believe I've said in the past, but here it is again: my formative
    experience in writing was for a newspaper, and that left an imprint on
    me not to limit freedom of speech in any way. It also taught me that
    there is a difference between a private citizen and a public citizen.

    If an ordinary person gets arrested for driving under the influence, we
    didn't really cover it in the newspaper (it happens often enough that it
    really isn't news). But if the mayor got busted for DUI we would cover
    it. It's the difference between a private figure and a public figure

    In USA Today, a popular scroll saw pattern designer may not be a public
    figure, in the world of scrolling, that person IS a public figure.

    So how do I handle this thread? It is easily in the top 10 most
    difficult decisions I've ever made. If I take it down outright, it looks
    like I'm trying to protect a designer. If I leave it up, I'm tarnishing
    the reputation of a talented designer who may or may not be in the
    wrong--it's not my place to decide that!

    Shannon posted asking that people allow the courts to decide who is in
    the right and who is in the wrong. And while the subject changed a bit
    and got more philosophical, the thread continued to be testimony in the
    court of public opinion. There comes a time when all that can be said
    has been said; when the same thing is said again and again in different
    ways, it serves no one's purpose!

    In the end, the editorial team decided to take the thread down. No one
    has appointed any of us judge, jury, and executioner. It is my job to
    enforce the Bill of Rights and maintain harmony on the message board.

    If you have any concerns about this, please address them to me
    privately. Let me close with two links that helped the editorial team
    come to this decision:
    http://www.scrollsawer.com/forum/mes...dback/6510.htm

    http://www.scrollsawer.com/forum/mes...dback/9644.htm

    Bob Duncan
    Technical Editor
    www.GrobetUSA.com

  • #2
    Thank you Bob. I come here on the board for fun and learnings. I never talk politics or religion with anyone and I think that should apply to the board also. I realize that some copyright issues have to be discussed when it comes to using a pattern or exchanging a pattern but there is a limit to what I want to hear or read about.

    I found that most people here are very friendly and all are very helpful. Let's keep it that way please. I still have much to learn and would like that to be a pleasant experience.

    Diane
    Dragon
    Owner of a nice 21" Excalibur
    Owner of a Dewalt 788
    PuffityDragon on AFSP

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by BobD
      In the end, the editorial team decided to take the thread down. No one
      has appointed any of us judge, jury, and executioner. It is my job to
      enforce the Bill of Rights and maintain harmony on the message board.
      Bob Duncan
      Technical Editor
      When this type of censoring happens it leaves me wondering what I have missed. Is it not possible to leave a thread alone but lock it when it becomes questionable, so that people like me, who don't read every single post every single day would still know what's gone on.
      Marsha
      LIFE'S SHORT, USE IT WELL

      Comment


      • #4
        To Mr. Duncan and the Scroll Saw Community,

        Although I have not had any contact Mr. Zaffino I am well aware of the current situation and the recently removed post. Mr. Zaffino has sent me an email explaining he "must have mistakenly added my name from the pending list to the approved list. My images that were used without my consent were removed from his web sites.
        http://www.jdhillberry.com/big_league.htm
        http://www.jdhillberry.com/grandpa.htm
        http://www.jdhillberry.com/tight_gate.htmNone of these artists have signed anything.http://www.jdhillberry.com/big_league.htm

        Here is some text from the article:
        all been tricked here. And this is no time to hide it. I feel the scroll saw community has a duty to help shed light on this and the community has a right to know the truth. If nothing can be said about this situation in places like this, he will simply remove the images from his web site and nothing more will come of it. People like Marsha (above) will not be aware that they have been duped as well. As far as the fear of a slander or libel lawsuit commencing from this, please keep in mind that if the information is true, there can be no action taken.

        The other artists that he has taken from would also like to state their cases here and post links to their stolen work as well. I hope this forum will give us all a chance to speak.

        Thank you.
        Sincerely,
        J. D. Hillberry
        Last edited by J D Hillberry; 03-16-2007, 11:14 AM. Reason: correct date of creative publication

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you for posting here J. D. Hillberry.

          I hope the other artists you mention will stop in and share as well AND that the forum administrators will let the posts stand.
          ‎"Orphans are easier to ignore before you know their names. They're easier to ignore before you see their faces. It's easier to pretend they're not real before you hold them in your arms. But once you do, everything changes."

          D. Platt

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanx JD. I don't really think it's for us to judge, like Bob says...but I think you deserve to speak, and whether or not we are able to do anything about your situation, we can at least learn a valuable lesson. I am in no position to judge or point fingers, just in a position to learn something from this situation, regardless how it turns out. I hope the board considers this and re-instates the deleted post as well...in the name of education.
            Jeff Powell

            Comment


            • #7
              Mr, Zaffino has been caught by several of these artists already and has freeley admitted through emails and phone conversations that, to begin with, he did not have permission to use these artist's work - claming it was a mistake by either him or an "assistant". This is the same thing he admitted in the email to me.
              This "assistant" defense doesn't hold much water for two reasons:
              1) An agreement must be signed by both responsible parties. Meaning only Mr. Zaffino has the authorization to enter any agreement about copyright usage. not an assistant. Some artists have been told in dated emails that the assistant has been fired. After that date, new infractions have occured.

              2) In a scroll saw forum recently Mr. Zaffino states:
              "In my experience, if you get an answer (permission to use copyrighted images) from the artist 90% of the time simply the fact that you asked for permission will impress them enough that they will have no problem with you using their image. However more often then not the artist will not answer. Don't mistake their silence as implied permission, unless they specifically say yes go ahead, keep looking for stuff to use and trying to get permission until you do.

              I have my best results by going to shows and talking to the artists face to face where I can show them what I do. I have a list of a couple hundred artists who have granted me permission to use anything they create that I obtained this way.
              Hope that this helped to answer your question...."


              I have had to edit my post above several times because I just received notification that more artists have been ripped off. This one is from England. Pencil artists from all over the world are getting emails now from Mr. Zaffino stateing there has been a big mistake. By using an internet archive program that shows a history of his web site, I can see that some these images have been used and sold by him for years. I'm sorry, but this seems to be an awful lot of mistakes.

              J. D.
              Last edited by J D Hillberry; 03-15-2007, 04:21 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear J. D. Hillberry,

                I appreciate that you have joined this forum and have posted to this thread. You, and only you, can speak to whether you have a signed, dated hard copy licensing agreement with this company or not. I believe that what Bob Duncan has done is close/remove a thread that could only speak in speculation, gossip, theory and assumption - not fact.

                You are the one that has the facts concerning the use, reproduction and copyright on your work.

                Speculation, conspiracy theories and assumptions further neither the Scroll Saw/Wood Carving community nor you.

                I am also a pattern maker-fine artist that would like to re-enforce two of your excellent points and add one more concerning copyright and the use of those artist's original work to create patterns.

                My statements are in general as I can not directly speak to your situation.

                First - To use another artist/photographer work in the creation of patterns or designs for resale to third party users (customers and craftsmen) REQUIRES a documented hard copy (on letter head stationary) agreement that states the full terms and scope of the use of that image as well as any and all financial compensation. That document must be hand signed and dated by both parties. It's called a Copyright Licensing Agreement and is a standard document in any form of reproduction for other peoples original work.

                So... emailing an artist asking if you can use their painting/picture/drawing in your scroll saw work is not the same nor equivalent to having obtained legal written permission to reproduce a derivative of that work for resale. In fact, such an email is misleading and deceptive! What it implies is that you want to use an image for your own personal work to display inside of your own home, not for sale.

                Second - An artist's work does not need to physically carry the Copyright symbol, artist signature and date to be fully protected under the copyright laws both within the US and Internationally. Many images displayed on the web do have copyright added directly to the image - but is to disable that image from piracy, it is not fulfill legal requirements.

                An artist's original work is copyrighted automatically under US law from the day that it is created. And a VA Copyright number from the Library of Congress is not required to secure your work as yours. It is something that I highly suggest that any artist obtain for their work. Copyright not only is automatic it extends for 70 years from the date of completion or until the death of the artist but that copyright is also an item that can be passed on in a will ....

                My third point is that any image or artwork that we see on the internet must be assumed to be fully copyrighted whether that image carries the copyright symbol or not. Even images created by the Old Masters as Vinci or Rembrandt are fully copyrighted as the website that originally created the image owns the copyright on that web image.

                Unless the website has a posted written statement that the images presented are for public domain use - hands off! And even with a public domain statement I, personally, would peruse a written licensing agreement.

                Just my opinion.

                Susan Irish - www.CarvingPatterns.com
                Last edited by WyvernWench; 03-15-2007, 04:31 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  veracity). I have said for years that our freedoms here in the United States is not the right to do what we please, but the opportunity to do that which is right (veracity). Popular with the masses or not the truth must always be a guiding force in our lives or we are doomed to our own destruction, the very lack of veracity in our lives and culture..

                  If we are not careful our knowledge of truth will be only historical. That is, we study truth just for the sake of knowing the truth. We may know the truth from a historical perspective, but we fail to live it out in our lives (veracity).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by WyvernWench
                    Dear J. D. Hillberry,

                    You are the one that has the facts concerning the use, reproduction and copyright on your work.

                    Speculation, conspiracy theories and assumptions further neither the Scroll Saw/Wood Carving community nor you.

                    - www.CarvingPatterns.com
                    That is exactly why I have chosen to speak up in this forum. This has been going on far to long. When cought, an email goes out explaining a big mistake by an assistant. The images are taken down at that point and no one even knows about it. New images are easily taken to replace them. I want to finally shed some light on this to put a stop to it. Although I have their permission to tell their stories, the other artists involved will be commenting here too.

                    I apprecate the site admin for keeping this thread up. If not, your community will continue to be fooled.

                    J. D.
                    Last edited by J D Hillberry; 03-15-2007, 04:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have only one question regarding this whole incident. Why was this forum chosen to air this greviance? To my knowledge Jeff Zaffino is not a contributer to Scroll Saw Woodworking & Crafts magazine nor is he a regular visitor to this site. It's truly unfortunate that Mr. Hillberry's drawings were used illegally; however, the intent of this forum is not to air personal grieviances. I wonder what impression this is giving new members who joined to improve their scrolling skills?
                      If it don't fit, don't force it....get a bigger hammer!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by J D Hillberry

                        I apprecate the site admin for keeping this thread up. If not, your community will continue to be fooled.

                        J. D.
                        If I remember rightly this thread was closed down .... I doubt it was the site admins intention to put the sticky up for the airing of personal grievances to continue...
                        Ian

                        Scrolling with a Dewalt 788

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I don't think that this belongs here. As they say "dirty laundry is to be washed in private". That's where this topic belongs.
                          Diane
                          Dragon
                          Owner of a nice 21" Excalibur
                          Owner of a Dewalt 788
                          PuffityDragon on AFSP

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mr. Zaffino is a member of this board and has had contact with any number of other members. He has sold patterns to members of this board who have then cut them and sold them and possibly made a profit from what they believed to be original art. We have supported members of this forum as they have learned to do fretwork and aspired to the skill level required to do a 'Zaffino' design. It does effect us.
                            As a designer I am very aware of copyright and the various complexities therein. I have read, on this board, many statements which indicate just how little some people know about what is legal and what is not as it pertains to other peoples art be it drawn, painted or photographed etc etc..
                            This issue effects us all..it will do no good to stick our heads in a pile of sawdust and pretend that none of it happened. The artists who have been ripped off have the right to say that they drew a particular piece... they need our respect..in this forum..not hidden or ignored

                            Sue Chrestensen

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Neal Moore
                              I have only one question regarding this whole incident. Why was this forum chosen to air this greviance? To my knowledge Jeff Zaffino is not a contributer to Scroll Saw Woodworking & Crafts magazine nor is he a regular visitor to this site. It's truly unfortunate that Mr. Hillberry's drawings were used illegally; however, the intent of this forum is not to air personal grieviances. I wonder what impression this is giving new members who joined to improve their scrolling skills?
                              Well said Neal and it's about time someone brought up this curoiousity. This forum is provided by SWWC.
                              Kevin
                              Scrollsaw Patterns Online
                              Making holes in wood with an EX-30, Craftsman 16" VS, Dremel 1680 and 1671

                              Comment

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