Brown Outs in the shop

[Rivari]

Lately I have been having intermittant problems with a GFI outlet popping off when I turn my saw on, my saw is not even plugged into this outlet. I did try the easy fix of unplugging some items from other outlets (battery chargers, dust collector and radio) but I am still having issues. Is there a problem with my saw drawing to many amps (guessing) or am I on the verge of a larger problem?

I have no idea when it comes to electrical work, I see an outlet and I plug things in.

BTW, the GFI outlet was in the house when we bought it...do i need this thing at all, it isn't in a place where it could ever get wet.

[bearfretworks]

I'm electricity challenged myself..........

that said, I'd guess it is there for a reason - any chance you have a water or sewer pipe near that plug?

Those GFCI plugs do go bad (DAMHIKT), might be as simple as replacing it with another.....

[Rolf]

In our area code says you need a GFI in the garage and workshop.
That said when I put new electrics in my shop. The first outlet in the chain is a GFI the rest are tied into it. It is a heavy duty GFI and I never have any problems. The GFI outlets do go bad so I would replace it with a heavy duty (higher current rating) new one.

[Rivari]

I suppose I could change the thing out, that much I know how to do. The GFCI plug is on the wall above a work bench. We would need to flood at biblical proportions before the water touched it.

I do have new outlets in a cabinet I could use, I'll wait for some more feedback before I go that route.

[Rivari]

Just caught your post Rolf, I will see what is out there for heavy duty outlets, this thing looks like a standard household GFCI you would find in a bathroom.

[Marcel in Longueuil]

Todd,

Your saw is probably on the same circuit as the CGFI outlet (connected in series)
The CGFI is likely 15 amps, probably the same as the circuit breaker that circuit is hooked to.

You need to check how many amps your saw pulls, and don't forget to add one or two amps to be safe at startup since it normally will peak then (the motor works harder to start the saw than to keep it running).

You then need to check the other items on that circuit and add them all up to see the total amps you are pulling. As has been mentioned, a CGFI outlet is normally (but not always) located at the beginning of the "chain", so the total amperage is going through it.

If the problem is recent, you may want to make sure of a few things: have you added a new item to the list (shopvac, dust collector, magnifying lamp, radio, tv...)? if yes, then unplug that and try to see if it resolves the problem. If it does, you need to find another outlet for that item...

if it hasn't or if there are no new items, then you may want to check all receptacles for loose wires. close the breaker, open each outlet and check that all wires are properly attached and tighten to make sure they are. This could also be the cause of the tripping and be a warning sign of a possible fire hazard (wire detaches and causes short-circuit= possible electrical fire)

If all of the above don't solve the problem, and you are pulling well below the 15 amp maximum, then you may want to invest a few dollars in an electrician to have a look at it ( since you describe yourself as electrically challenged) you could have damaged wires in the walls.

Also: Is it only the saw that trips it? have you tried another circuit to see if the saw trips the breaker? It could be the saw that is defective.

Removing the CGFI outlet may sound like a good idea, but it isn't necessarily one. If it's tripping then there is a reason, and that is what their purpose is: by tripping they tell you something is wrong: ignoring them is not the solution.

If you do decide to go that route, and replace it, then I would like to make a very logical and smart recommendation: change the batteries in your smoke detectors, make sure your insurance policy gives you sufficient coverage, and don't go to bed too drunk to wake up in case of emergency.

Happy Holidays to you and your family.
Sincerely,
Marcel in Longueuil

[MikeDingas]

I agree with Marcel; do not replace the GFI outlet with a standard one. Although the outlet itself is well away from contact with water, what about the saw or drill or anything else plugged into it? The GFI is there to drop the circuit if a short is sensed; doesn't matter whether the short is right at the outlet or 20 feet away at the end of an extension cord.

Check for loose wires in the outlet. If that's not an issue, I would suggest getting a new GFI as the cheapest solution. If it solves the problem great. If not call an electrician.

[sawdustus]

sawdustus of hiawatha

Todd,

The first thing to check before you buy a new GFCI outlet is the size of the breaker or fuse. Like all circuits, the breaker size is determined by the wire size. A 15 amp breaker takes # 14 wire. A 20 amp breaker takes #12 wire. # 12 is thicker than # 14 and can therefore handle more electricity before overheating and causing the breaker to trip.

Do not try to put a 20 amp GFCI on a circuit with #14 wire with a 15 amp breaker. Doing that will negate the usefullness of the GFCI. They are designed to trip in milliseconds thereby preventing a large overload from passing through the wire, or you, and shorting it out in the wall or in your circuit box. They are mainly there to prevent shocks to you from a short in your tools or appliances caused by either moisture or faulty wiring. By contrast, the main breaker trips in tenths of a second or longer after the short is detected; too long a time to prevent a nasty jolt to you. If you use too large a GFCI you are effectively making the main breaker act as your safety for sudden shorts.

All that being said, all the other suggestions are valid. PS. I learned all of this from an electrician friend before he retired. Good luck. By the way, when you do replace a GFCI, you will notice two sets of terminals on the outlet. One is labeled LINE and one is labeled LOAD. If you think of a water tank with an inlet and an outlet for the water, the LINE terminals (think IN ) is where the electricity comes into the outlet and the LOAD (think OUT) terminals are where it leaves the outlet to go to other outlets or switches.

If you do try to replace the outlet yourself, first turn off the breaker and then open the outlet box, pull out the old outlet with the wires still attached, and label the wires with some tape BEFORE you remove them from the old outlet. Then put them back onto the labeled terminals on the new outlet in the same place they were on the old outlet. If the circuit keeps tripping, first try switching the load and line wires. This sometimes works because very old GFCI outlet were labeled differently than the newer ones are (it happened to me at a friends house). If this doesn't work call an electrician because you have a more serious problem to find.

All this being said, all the other suggestions are valid. PS. I learned all of this from an electrician friend before he retired. Good luck.

[Neal Moore]

Ground Faults

Todd....I'm a retired electrician and can give you some good advice on this one. GFI recepticals are not like regular circuit breakers. They are "ground fault interrupters". The slightest hint of a grounded circuit will trip them. They do not protect the circuit from current overloads...they protect YOU from becoming electrocuted as a result of malfunctioning equipment..for example, a blow drier being dropped into the bathtub. They are prone to "nusiciance trips" and occasionally also just wear out if tripped too many times. The problem may be that the equipment you're running off the GFI is defective and the interrupter is simply doing its job. As stated earlier, all the recepticals down stream of the GFI will be protected by it so it doesn't matter which one you're plugged in to. If you are electrically challenged I strongly recommend an electrician check that out for you and also the saw that's causing it to trip. Just a suggestion my friend, but even 120VAC is dangerous, and I'd like to see you around the board a lot longer!!!

[Rivari]

Wow, thanks for all the input. I will hold off on messing with anything at this point. I did check all my outlets yesterday and for whatever reason two of them had a bit of "play" in them. I don't know why they wiggled around so much but I will assume it can't be right. Not wanting to burn my house down or shock the pudding out of myself I think I will have someone that knows what they are doing take a look at the problem.

Marcel, the thing only trips with the saw in operation and only on start up. No other tool has caused a similiar problem. When I get home this evening I will see what kind of amps it is pulling, hopefully that information written on my saw somewhere.

[Neal Moore]

Todd...motors that have brushes are notorious for causing nusciance trips on GFI recepticals, especially if the brushes are worn. It might be as simple as changing the brushes in your saw. I'd check that first!!!

[Rivari]

Neal, I can't imagine the brushes could be worn already. I got my new Hawk just before I left last year and I have maybe 40 hours on the thing at the most. Do you think it would be worth testing the saw on another outlet (i.e. run an extension cord into the house to see if it trips a GFCI in there). Of all the items that are plugged in that are located in the shop/garage my chest freezer is the only thing that worries me. Could it be that something else is putting a heavy load on the system and that my saw is just pushing it over the edge?

[bearfretworks]

Todd,

When I bought my Jet mini-lathe, I had to add a new circuit to the garage as it popped the GFCI breaker every time I turned it on. The owners manual clearly stated: do not use on a GFCI. The contoller for the dc motor will fool a GFI outlet into thinking there's a ground fault.......

[Albert]

It can be a real crap shoot determining just where a fault lies. I had a lamp with a three way bulb that was shorted *inside* the bulb. Replaced the bulb and everything was OK.

[Rivari]

Dog gone, I guess a can't avoid the obvious, I will call a pro today and see what can be done. I was hoping this would be something simple...