Posting links

[BobD (Archive)]

We had a bit of a problem over the weekend with people posting links to other sites, and it quickly got negative--in my opinion. I'm sorry if people feel that I "violated" their rights to free speech, but in my opinion, it had no place on this board!

To clear things up, I started this thread. I'll post my opinion on the whole issue and let everyone throw darts at it. Then, as a group, we can make a final decision.

I really don't have a problem with people posting links to different sites here. There are some sites that deal with issues we don't (free patterns, etc.). I don't have a problem when someone asks "Where can I find a free pattern of a dog," that someone sends them to one of the free pattern groups.

I also don't have a problem when someone posts a link to a great project on another site. i'd prefer that people didn't link to a direct competitor--without a good reason. If I don't think it's appropriate, I'll delete it (That's the advantage I have with Admin powers).

In my opinion, it really isn't kosher to post a link to a great project and require a person to register for another site. Maybe it's just me, but I think that is asking too much of a person. Either post it somewhere where the average person can see it without registering, get the person to come to this site and post the project, or get permission to post the project here for the person.

Please let me know what you think!

Bob Duncan
Scroll Saw Workshop

[urband]

Bob,
I absolutely agree with your comments. It's your website and you have both the right and the responsibility to set and enforce the rules. Otherwise, a few individuals can wreck things for the rest of us. Even the best of us get a little ornery now and then, but this is not the place to express it.

Those of us using this message board aren't spending a penny, but we benefit enormously from both the information exchanged and the friendships that are formed. There will always be differences of opinion, but that's part of what makes things interesting, fun and maybe causes us to take another look at our own points of view.

And you have no obligation to support your competition. They can create their own message board.

Dan Urban

[sheltiecarver]

You go Bob!!
Not only do I trust your judgement, but you (ok, maybe you and Fox Pub.) are the board - what you say goes. If somebody doesn't like the rules, there is a whole www for them to go to.
And thanks for looking out for us.
Sandy

[jttheclockman]

Bob and others,

Let me first say I appoligize if my words were offensive to others. I want to go on record here and say I made the first reply with no ill intent but to help this site. I have and never will harm this site in any way. I had pushed for changes on this site when it still was just a carver's site so I am not about to get in a war of words and bring the moral down. I have given my time and knowledge to answer questions and to be helpful when I can. My opinions are not always met with resounding acceptance but that is OK because they are just opinions and everyone should have one. They lead to debate sure but that is all. The poking fun is just that fun. Bob had all the right to step in and I am glad he did. This is a friendly bunch and we will stay that way.

But and this goes on the line of what Bob is asking, I too do not think it is right to come to this site and solicite members and have people sign up to just see a project. Not fair. I have no problem with links being added to help illustrate a point or to further the info. I do it all the time. It saves in alot of typing and that person or others can check it out if they feel the need to . Then they can ask questions again. As far as leading to other interesting sites to see what others are doing and in different medium I thought the link on the left side of the page was for that but I will go along with adding another topic thread for just this occasion.

Again my appologies if some thought I stepped out of bounds. I just thought this was too important to let get away because it will escalate. These are my opinions and my thoughts.

[William Young (SE BC)]

Hi Bob;
No darts coming from this direction
I will gladly abide by the rules and regulations of this site .
Perhaps my link was out of line but I didn't realize it at the time. It was only meant to show a very unique form of scrolling and a picture posted here on it would not have explained much because there were a couple of very long threads about it with explanations of how it was done. To the best of my knowedge , I don't think anybody before now had modified a scrollsaw to perform such a unique piece as that gentlman made. I was hoping that it would have provided some usefull information.
Sorry it was taken the wrong way by a a few that got the trouble started in that thread. I was glad to see that you edited and locked it. I do the very same thing on my site when a few try to start something that puts a very negative slant on a topic like was started in that one that you locked . That is what administrators like you and myself are there for and I have given my moderator enough powers to do almost everything in my site that I can do in times when I need to be away.
Speaking of being away. . . .

Sorry for the late response . Had to go to Dr's appointment 250 km round trip through the mountains in a snow storm.
Take care and keep up the good work.
W.Y.

[GrayBeard Phil]

Bob:

I have to agree with your policy. But with a mild reservation.

I am guilty of posting links to things beyond this board, but I do it in the hope of expanding the range of thinking of the others who might visit this site.

I am aware of at least 7 other scroll saw forums, all of which are easy to find, join, and view. I had personally regarded it to be un-gentlemanly to bring up the the 'competition' to this site without due cause. And due cause is most unusual.

A couple of these other sites are listed in the "Other Great Sites" on this board. And Rick Hutchinson's place (see link in Other Great Sites) does provide a link most of them.

{ aside: If members of this board haven't visited some of these other boards, they may not be aware of the contribution of others to the hobby of scroll sawing like Dirk Boelman. }

So therefore my reservation: Bob, you are like the county Justice of the Peace. When a problem reaches the level that it comes up before the J.P., things have gotten way out of hand and the authority of the J.P. is needed. But that causes other problems. To be blunt, it will most likely cause mis-understanding and hurt feelings. A way to head off problems and point out the errors and educate of the un-informed is needed.

However, if I appointed myself as an 'enforcer of proper and correct behavior,' the flame wars against me would become most uncivilized. I suspect any single member appointing themselvs as 'Emile Post' would get the same reaction.

So the dillemma, how do we, as a community, gently but effectively instruct our fellow forum members as to proper and correct board behavior without the dragging the un-informed up before the J.P.?

Phil

(P.S. Dang it, there goes my New Year's resolution to keep my posts short and to the point. )

[lucky788scroller]

Well, I too am involved in thread that apparently went bad sometime after I posted to it. I dont come here to cause any trouble, and I'm sure there really isnt anyone that does come for that same purpose.I really dont mind links to useful information for the purpose of instruction, or even of a great value to be had.(here goes my long post too phil ) In that , I think back a few years ago, to before I got my first Dewalt scrollsaw. I had been using a small ryobi, and it just wasnt cuttin it so to speak. I followed a couple scrollsaw forums, and I learned as much as I could through posts and links and what have you. I learned how one guy prepped his wood for his massive and beautiful clocks, how he would cut these clocks out really fast on his dewalt, and how his dewalt was king. I even viewed a picture looking out of his shop window to a nice mountain view.I learned a lot from following what he done, and how he done it.I took his advice, and I'm still glad I did, when I looked for my own Dewalt.It was on a forum, much like this one, that I learned of the great Lowes deal on the dewalt for $199 back then, and through that forum I was pointed to a store across the country, where I found the elusive dewalt.If it wasnt for that one guys help and instruction, and advice, I'm not sure I would have boughten that first dewalt in my corral.I learned a lot for one posters help, and Im still thankful for that, even though that same guy now doesnt seem to have anything good to say about dewalts.( I gotta quit rambling)...What I dont think is right, is somebody coming in here and posting a link to another site, and then saying you have to join that site to view what was talked about.To me thats someone just trying to recruit members. The links I post are NEVER to places where anyone must join anything, nor to ANYWHERE that sells anything that benefits me in no way. I did notice that even Mike M doesnt have a link anywhere on his posts to recruit blade customers. I guess thats where quality speaks for itself, and he doesnt need to recruit here,instead he offers advice when he can, and leaves it well enough alone.
I too think perhaps links are best suited for the "other great sites" section to the left, as John and Phil previously said.If I hurt anyones feelings, Im sorry, it wasnt my intent, but it still irks me the thought of having to join someones site to view a picture! Dale (sorry I got longwinded)

[SharonW0111]

I am agreeing to use this site to help others to learn to love the "art " as much as I do..but I will not knowingly post a link to any others.. I only suggest mike and sloans for tools and such,, But I do have to say that without this site I would not be as good as I am nor would I have the knowlege I have - seems when I read something here I rember it when I have that problem come up .---and I thank all of you for all the many times you have unknowly carried me through a very rough time in my life . Some just in a kind word , some in making me chuckle , some in making me come out of the blues just by reading your post. I thank Bob and Fox publishing for this site and I hope it never closes. I don't comint anywhere but here and sometimes I probably shouldn't .. but you guys ARE the best of the ones I would even consider being proud to say are my friends ...
Sharon

[bearfretworks]

Bob,

I agree that some guidelines need to be established and the ones you laid out look fine to me. I have learned an incredible amount from all the participants on this forum in my short tenure. Every single person that posts here brings a different and valuable perspective to the table. I hope everyone involved in the weekend skirmish realizes that the point of this place is to help each other become better scrollers and maybe make a few friends in the process. What attracted me to this place was the willingness of all to share their skills, mistakes, and idea's with folks they don't even know. Leave the flaming to the "outside world" and the other, not-quite-as-good forums. I don't know about the rest of you, but I get enough of that at my day job.

Thanks!

Barry Stratton

[PiALaModem]

At the risk of redundancy, I have to say I can't see what the fuss is about. (not the fuss about people getting nasty, but the fuss about links) I never saw the evil demon thread, and I'm not going to go looking for it. Hopefully everyone has cooled down.

Allowing links to some interesting material and not to some other interesting material based on whether the venue the material is on requires a sign-up seems like juridical hairsplitting to me. Unless there is some other reason to find the link offensive, like being unrelated to scroll sawing or clearly a come-on without any context in this forum, it should be allowed. People who don't like signing up in other forums don't have to. There is value in free exchange of information, and detriment in limiting it. I would imagine most people here are already signed up to most scroll saw resources around anyway, or would like learning of new resources. My two cents.

Obviously the owner of a forum has no obligation to set the rules up that way or any other way, and can ban any activity she wants. I spent many hours as a Guide on AOL in the old days and as a forum admin even before there was AOL (well, we called them Electronic Bulletin"g" Boards back then), explaining this fact to unruly members. You have to follow the rules whatever they are.

[BobD (Archive)]

Let me see if I can summarize the general feelings (please feel free to correct me at any point). As much as this forum is "Fox Chapel," it is your forum! I want to make it the best I can for YOU! Perhaps I read too much into the link issue when there was another underlying issue that needs addressed.

1. It's ok to post links to information relating directly to the specific posts.
2. It's ok to post links to new information when it becomes available.
3. It's ok to post links to other areas that require registration, if someone doesn't want to register, they don't have to.
4. Flaming is not necessary; if you have a problem with someone, PM them. The moderators or I remove anything that gets personal or nasty. It's ok to disagree, but be respectable about it.
5. A free and open exchange of information is just that--free and open. I see that now. As long as the link isn't too far off the mark, post away.

In hindsight, I should have requested a more mutually respectable attitude on the board. I get the strong feeling that there is some ongoing hard feelings--and I respectfully request that it not show up on the board. If you all want to PM me to vent, well, I'll clean out my PM folder. I've got broad shoulders. But I'd really like to keep that off the board.


Bob

[CanadianScroller]

Thanks Bob, this forum is surely flourishing and it is due to the positive input and helpful comments that everyone posts.
I have seen others fall by the wayside because of the very issues you describe.

The forum becomes a subculture of its own. People with similar interests and ideas often email or message each other on the side. I do enjoy the messaging feature.
I have the pop-up enabled, which alerts me when I have a new message.
I wish this was the default, since I failed to respond to many messages before I found it.

I have learned much from this forum, the more I learn the more I realize just how versatile scrollers can be.
One thing I have found is that people who scroll have lots of patience, they like to help each other and realize that we all started at the same point.
OK maybe that's three things, I never was good with numbers.

Happy scrolling

[Old Mooner]

Huh? Guess I missed the "best" part. Bob, I think your numbered "guidelines" are very clear and fair. In looking over the current posts to this thread I have to say "and your point is?" Why, in this day and age, are we all so thin skinned and seem to take immediate offense at the smallest thing (I reckon the definition of "smallest" is part of the problem.
It only makes sense to not tout the "competition's" sites on this site. If you want to pass on info of that sort, use email or privatge messages. I have, in the past, recommended some sites (groups) whose purpose is the production of "free patterns." In order to get them, in some cases, you have to become a member. So what? If it galls you to "sign up" then don't. Find your patterns elsewhere. Your choice. If I tell you they are selling motor oil at Sam's Club for half the price found elsewhere, you have to become a member to buy it. Was I wrong to tell you about it?
Fox Chapel gets to make the "rules" on their sites and the rest of us can comply or pick up our toys and go home.
As far as "flaming" is concerned. It is totally uncalled for. A "vigorous" discussion, however, is sometimes essential. I don't personally know any of you folks (I feel as though I do, but I don't). I'm sure some of you would dislike me immediately if we met. Some of my students hated me and some thought I "walked on water." Dislike and/or personality conflicts are, I suppose, inevitable in any group of people, but that doesn't mean we can't overlook personal quirks and press on. If I unintentionally irritate someone because I use a term they find offensive, they need to get over it and I will do the same when they do it to me. Neal and I goodnaturedly (it is goodnaturedly isn't it?) needle each other all the time. He can't help it if he was in the Navy. The Air Force recruiters must have been closed that day.
Moon

[William Young (SE BC)]

Hi Bob;
Thank you for your second response in this thread.
Well said and much appreciated.
W.Y.

[Gill]

He can't help it if he was in the Navy. The Air Force recruiters must have been closed that day.

When my father was a lad he would sit by the local quay, watching the ships as they pulled out to sea on their journeys to exciting and exotic lands. He told me that watching those ships formed his earliest memories and he couldn't wait for the day when he'd be old enough to leave school and join the navy.

At last, the great day came and he caught a bus for the navy recruitment office. He didn't know exactly where it was because he'd never been to the city before. Nevertheless, he trudged the rainsoaked streets all day as the merciless North Sea wind bit into him. Finally, he arrived at the navy recruitment office, only to find it closed.

However, the air force recruitment office next door was open, and it was warm and dry. So he joined the air force instead!

Gill (also ex-air force)